David B. 0:00

This is Collapse Club. I'm David Baum in Seattle. These are conversations with people making an energetic and thoughtful response to collapse. Today I'm with Matthew Painton from Chichester, England. Matthew is a therapist and coach who helps people work through the difficult emotions that arise from becoming collapse aware. Matthew says it's valuable to metabolize those feelings because when we've done that, we know who we really are. Here's our conversation. Matthew, you're a coach. You coach people about collapse. What does that mean? What do you do?

Matthew Painton 0:37

In a nutshell, I'd say I'm trying to turn distress into enlivenment.

David B. 0:46

Say that last word again, please?

Matthew Painton 0:47

Enlivenment. I use a term bigger than self-distress, which is a catch-all term for the... many kinds of distress and levels of distress that show up when we become collapse aware or crisis aware, when we're sensitive to the big picture. It places all kinds of stresses and distress on us, which we can either compartmentalise against, distract, ignore, or we can learn to metabolise. And by metabolise, I mean fully feel. The idea being, when we can find a safe enough space and the right company, whether it's a group or individuals one-to-one or whatever, in processing and metabolizing that distress, we can turn at least a portion of it into enlivenment. And what I call more-than-me enlivenment. So bigger than distress, self-distress, more-than-me enlivenment. Both of them are care and concern for the bigger picture, for the more-than-me world. rather than the rugged individualism that we've been trained into. Part of metabolizing the distress means that we remember who we really are, what we really care about, and then we can act on behalf of that.

David B. 2:13

It sounds like, and I understand this, I agree with this, it sounds like We are starting from a place of not being connected to something real, authentic, enlivened in ourselves, trapped in individual being somehow disconnected from a wider world. And there's a process that you see and guide people through to help lift the veil and make the reconnection.

Matthew Painton 2:43

Exactly. And that's what the wisdom traditions have always been doing. what's unique to our current circumstances is this inconvenient planetary crisis that we're now in. So reconnecting with nature, with the planet, which ordinarily in good times would be a blissful process, at current times, it's terrifying, unpleasant, scary. you're still connecting. In connecting with those bigger systems and ways of being and levels of being, there's still the potential for enlivenment as well as the distress.

David B. 3:31

Okay, it's very interesting. As you say, usually, usually, whenever that is, the search for enlightenment or enlivenment is a path toward bliss. But here we confront, as you say, this terrible crisis. That's really daunting. It seems like there's no reason a person would want to face all that. It's too terrible. So what do we do?

Matthew Painton 3:58

Well, exactly. There's a host of good reasons. why people are distracting and in denial it's unpleasant to face the crisis it disadvantages us in in business as usual and we're we're all still obliged to function in business as usual no matter how irrational or insane we're still dependent on it we still have to function in it so There are very good reasons for dissociating, distracting, denying is one thing. So what we do in Collapse Club, in Deep Adaptation, in my coaching is provide a space, a safe enough space to start to face into and experience and metabolize and articulate and explore those distressing feelings. And the magic is when you do that, enlivenment of some sort often follows you know in these groups we all have experience of that we experience compassion beauty value common values all kinds of good things and ideas and insights about what's worthwhile doing no matter what

David B. 5:19

and what What difference does that make given the crisis of the world? Isn't it true that the world is ending and we just sort of have to grit our teeth and go along with it?

Matthew Painton 5:32

What's the difference between my personal death and the death of a species or the death of an ecosystem or the death of a planet? The grief of my father dying was very personal and immediate. The grief I experience for the insects that are dying. It's got common ground, but it's a different kind of process of feeling and intensity and duration. We're not trying to save, or I gave up trying to save the plant. This process that's been unleashed is out of control. The tipping points have already been crossed. Whatever's happening is now out of all control. And the burden of trying to save the planet is an impossible burden. It's an impossible weight for anyone to carry on their shoulders. So they don't carry it on their shoulders. But what we can do is choose how to participate. Presumably, life will get harder and harder year by year. Shorter, more disrupted, harder to predict. Some of us, you know, it's proceeding very unevenly. You know, there's many people on the surface of the planet who've been suffering collapse for generations past. There's many of us who are still sort of fairly immune to it in one way or another, although things are beginning to get crazy. So the trajectory is bad. The overall trajectory is bad towards harder, shorter, more disrupted, unpredictable lives. peppered with disasters. It's not pretty. But for as long as we can, we have this agency, a possibility of choosing how to participate as best we can.

David B. 7:36

Why is it important to participate intentionally in what's going on now?

Matthew Painton 7:47

I think for me, it's finding what's worthwhile no matter what. the things to do. You know, the alternative is capitulation. That's one of the alternatives, capitulation. Spend the rest of my life in despair. I've spent a good few years in despair. I still keep dipping my toes in the water very regularly, but that's not where I want to live or how I want to live. So finding the things that are worthwhile. Again, It's unique to everyone, but there is always something to do. This process of metabolisation, it's the log jam. I think people think, well, why even go there? Why even feel these dark feelings? Because I can't solve it. But there is benefit to feeling the dark feelings and going there. because then you find what it is that is yours to do.

David B. 8:54

How are you feeling yourself?

Matthew Painton 8:59

I've noticed that I cycle through. There's a cycle to my mood. It's kind of sped up. In the beginning of being collapse aware, I was depressed for a long time, and then I fought my way out, and then I go back in. It's quicker now. And I'm more orientated within the process. I know what's coming. I know what the feelings of despair feel like. I know how to be with them, how to manage them, how to distract myself, what things to do to get me through it, who to be with. And then I will find something that seems worthwhile. I'll do that. That brings enlivenment, hope. Or I sort of compartmentalize and forget about it as best I can for a while. Then that becomes unsatisfying and I realize I'm just sitting on a load of emotion. Then another round of metabolization. And it's a cycle. And that's part of what, I can't say teach, but I accompany people with, is to improve our capacity to cycle through more readily and end up more often in the enlivenment zone.

David B. 10:21

You mentioned earlier that part of your process is to help people find skills that they need to cope, to metabolize. So I was wondering what people end up with.

Matthew Painton 10:39

Again, it's very different for different people. I tend to think of it, there are seven virtues which I think transmute a lot of the distress into enlivenment. I'm probably not going to remember them all off the top of my head. Fitness, physical fitness and a fitness with the environment, growing food, those kinds of things. Information, sharing information, and truthfulness that's another thing beauty cultivating beauty in whatever form in the garden in in the home in in our that's very soothing and can transmute distress goodness cultivating goodness just being good as best we can you know that it's enlivening compassion and meaning and and meaning in the sense that I mean it as an orientation towards the best possible outcomes so that there's some hope and aspiration identifying what this is achievable I can aim towards that gives meaning to life despite the absurdity of the bigger picture That's quite a technical explanation, but that's kind of what I'm, in the conversations I'm having, that's what I'm looking for, which of those values, which of those virtues is most meaningful to somebody and has most potential to uplift them.

David B. 12:16

So my question is, where do these values come from? For me, it's a quick step to God or the divine, not the white old man from the Bible, but from the divine presence that fills us all with love and energy. Is a spiritual aspect necessary, or do these things come straight out of the human being, the human experience?

Matthew Painton 12:50

Yeah. Presence is the last virtue that I forgot to mention. So presence is cultivated through nature connection, through meditation. But yes, I think a lot of people turn to soul and spirit, God, at times such as these, or deep time and the cosmos. That's another place where we can sort of resource ourselves and the universe isn't having a crisis. It's still unfolding in marvel and wonder and splendor We can cultivate an awareness of that. Different people respond in different ways. Of those sort of virtues I mentioned, most people have a one that really gets them going, whether it's beauty or truth or compassion. And they lean into that. What can I do to cultivate, to extend, to include that virtue in my life and with others and with the environment? The beauty of coaching is that I don't have to give any of the answers. They become apparent as I curiously delve into that person's being. They will know what it is that is spiritual or enlivening or inherently worthwhile. And in whatever language or metaphysical understanding they couch that in.

David B. 14:24

To sum up and to finish, what do you think people need to know? That

Matthew Painton 14:32

grief and distress may not be the path we choose, but it can be a path to enlivenment. And it's worthwhile going there, metabolizing what's happening on Earth, even if it seems overwhelming, with good company, It's not overwhelming and it leads to the gift of enlivenment and knowing what to do, what's mine to do or ours to do.

David B. 15:08

That was Matthew Painton, therapist and coach. Please see the episode notes for links to Matthew and to other resources. This is Collapse Club. I'm David Baum in Seattle. Until we meet again, farewell.